Israel does want a failed state - they want to balkanise Iran, letting their ISIS head-choppers, the Uigher terrorists etc at it. See Syria and how that's going.
This is preposterous revisionism - Israel didn't just leave Gaza alone, they turned it into an open air concentration camp, controlling everything going in and out. And they were utter bastards about it too, literally counting calories going into Gaza, and classing just about anything as "dual use" so not allowed (e.g. tent poles could be used to hit someone).
Israel has never stopped being the aggressor. Maybe if they stopped occupying, stealing, raping, murdering and massacring, the entire region might be more peaceful. Not likely for a genocidal, apartheid state filled with religious supremacist fanatics though.
If what you said was true, we'd have seen many, many civilian deaths in Israel over the course of the war - there have, officially, been less than 50 (note that in the same time period Israel - which has targeted civilian infrastructure such as hospitals in Iran - has killed over 3,000 Iranian civilians!).
But what you're saying isn't true - any of it! Iran has been hitting military targets. And they've been using MIRVs, not anti-personell cluster munitions (you know, of the kind Israel has dropped over 1M of over Lebanon). MIRVs split into multiple, independently targetable missiles when high above ground near the target zone. Cluster munitions wait until they are only some meters above ground, and then explode into bomblets.
On April 6, as many as 50 sites were impacted by missiles and their cluster munitions.
“Iranian cluster munitions struck roughly 50 locations across central Israel, wounding at least six, including a seriously wounded woman in Petah Tikva and a moderately wounded man in Ramat Gan,”
Iran has focused on using cluster munitions in its ballistic missile salvos since the first two weeks of the conflict. However, the proportion of these munitions has increased. By March 10, Israel’s Home Front Command said that 50 percent of the Iranian missiles contained cluster munitions.
On April 1, The Times of Israel reported that “12 missiles carrying conventional warheads with hundreds of kilograms of explosives […] struck populated areas in Israel, causing extensive damage. There have also been more than 30 incidents of missiles carrying cluster bomb warheads hitting populated areas, with over 200 separate impact sites.” A ballistic missile attack on April 4, which led to at least 10 impact sites, illustrated how large an area can be affected by one missile with cluster munitions.
Iran is absolutely not using MIRVs. They are only used with nuclear warheads because they are very expensive. Iran is using good old fashioned cluster warheads where the bomblets are randomly dispersed, which is an evil weapon to use against civilians.
You are wrong[0], see Khorramshahr. Maybe Iran found ways to make them more easily produced. And there are videos where you can see missiles splitting into other missiles, some of which go in different directions.
As before, it's Apartheid Israel that uses cluster bombs (and white phosphorus too).
You are wrong if you think Iran is targeting each sub-munition of the ballistic missiles it is firing at Israel civilians. No country has ever used any ballistic missiles that has conventional MIRVs because it simply doesn't make sense.
Iran is far more of an apartheid state because Jews are considered to be Dhimmis and officially discriminated against. Dhimmi status is not equality. Recognized-minority status under the 1979 constitution comes with hard ceilings: Jews cannot hold senior military, judicial, or executive positions; inheritance law historically favored any family member who converted to Islam (a Jew converting could inherit the entire estate from Jewish relatives, a direct incentive structure against the community); testimony of non-Muslims is weighted less in court; blood money (diyya) was unequal until reforms in the 2000s. The reserved Majles seat is one out of 290, tokenism, not representation.
The funny thing is that many Sunnis don't consider Shia to actually be Muslims. Shia twelvers are obsessed with the 12th Imam who they think is still alive after 1150+ years while Sunnis don't care about this at all and consider the entire concept blasphemous.
Well, for starters just today they hit cental, civilian areas of Beirut with 100 attacks in just 10 minutes - killing more Lebanese civilians in ten minutes than Iran killed Israeli civilians in months of war. Absolutely vile, with clear genocidal intent, and with the aim of stealing Lebanese land.
You are ignoring the elephant in the room: Hezbollah was literally founded in 1982 under IRGC direction; 1,500 Revolutionary Guards deployed to the Bekaa Valley to organize and train it. It is arguably the most successful export of the 1979 revolution's "velayat-e faqih" ideology. So Iran colonized Lebanon.
Hezbollah formally accepts Khamenei as wali al-faqih the supreme juridical authority. That's not alliance, that's religious-political fealty to a foreign head of state.
Iran provides an estimated $700M–$1B/year, plus missiles, drones, training. Without Iran, Hezbollah's strategic arsenal doesn't exist.
It operates as a parallel state inside Lebanon (own military, telecoms, social services, foreign policy), displacing Lebanese sovereignty in the south and Bekaa.
You are ignoring the mammoth on the room: Hezbollah only even exists because of Israeli aggression; murder, rape, land theft, and as we saw yesterday, civilian massacres.
> So Iran colonized Lebanon
They haven't "colonised" anything, and, at best, it's disingenuous to describe training a resistance group as such.
> It operates as a parallel state inside Lebanon (own military, telecoms, social services, foreign policy), displacing Lebanese sovereignty in the south and Bekaa.
To claim the "officially recognised" Lebanese state is sovereign is utterly ridiculous! They are stooges, tasked with sitting back and doing nothing while Israel carries out ethnic cleansing and genocide. An MI6 front (Westminster Foundation for Democracy) even has an office inside the Lebanese parliament.
Turns out that if you take over a country's government and continuously carry out appalling attrocities against it's people for decades, they will resist.
"To claim the "officially recognised" Lebanese state is sovereign is utterly ridiculous"
Wow, this is quite a take. If Hezbollah doesn't have to respect Lebanon sovereignty
then why does Israel?
"Turns out that if you take over a country's government and continuously carry out appalling attrocities against it's people for decades, they will resist."
This is just a insane conspiracy theory. Hezbollah is the organization that actually partially took over the Lebanese government with Iranian help.
Hezbollah attacks Israel with absolutely no concern for the damage Israels counterattacks will do to Lebanon.
Israel would not be attacking Hezbollah if Hezbollah wasn't attacking Israel. Israel just wants to exist while Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran all want to destroy it. Don't expect Israel to just passively accept this. Try to imagine how the US would react to a Mexican cartel shooting rockets at El Paso. I couldn't feel sorry for that cartel when the US counterattacked.
Let me ask you a few questions
1) do you think Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran can defeat Israel with force?
And those "proxies" are not "against" America or Israel - they exist solely as resistance groups that counter Israeli aggression, ethic cleansing, land theft etc. You know, like Israel is doing right now in their stated aim of annexing South Lebanon, after displacing over a million people from their homes. Without Israeli aggression and land theft, these resistance groups wouldn't exist.
> those "proxies" are not "against" America or Israel - they exist solely as resistance groups that counter Israeli aggression, ethic cleansing, land theft etc.
They explicitly call for the destruction of Israel.
Yes, the cohort of islamists and anti-semites, opposed to the decolonisation of historically jewish lands which were deliberately conquered in the name of Islam.
> that Iran had a religious decree against nuclear weapons?
One cleric issuing a prohibition while another pursues them isn’t particularly interesting from a political perspective.
> they've plainly had the capability to end Israel for many years
They plainly have not. Their proxies were insufficient. And their kinetics prone to interception and destruction at source.
> there are religious extremists involved for sure, but mostly of the Israeli variety
They’re both extremist. Iran has been funding extremists around the Middle East, in Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis. Israel has a religious nutter wing in charge turbocharged by America’s own camp of evangelical idiots.
> One cleric issuing a prohibition while another pursues them isn’t particularly interesting from a political perspective.
Except there's no evidence that any in Iran were pursuing nuclear weapons - Joe Kent has said every intelligence agency in the US agrees with that. British intelligence has agrees with that. Even the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) agrees.
It's plain that this war was started at the behest and benefit of Israel. And Israel is also using it as cover to annex Southern Lebanon, just as they want a slice of Iran.
> They’re both extremist. Iran has been funding extremists around the Middle East, in Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis.
See, those groups would call themselves resistance against Israeli aggression - afterall, resistance against constant Israel aggression is the only reason they even exist!
> Israel has a religious nutter wing in charge
Oh, it's much more than one nutter. Netanyahu may well be dead (he hasn't made any public appearance in a while, and Israel has been releasing AI videos of him), yet the genocide, ethnic cleansing and aggression continue, unabated. And let's not forgot about Israel and US' proxies in the region, ISIS and Al Qaeda.
This is a Western-centric framing. Iran have an oligarchy of IRGC billionaires consolidating power. Gazans and Lebanese and Yemeni are only slightly more disposable than their own populations.
It’s tempting to turn adversary into heroism. But the truth is Iran has supported the laughter of Gazans and Yemenis to keep war away from its shores for a few more years. These proxies need to rule ruthlessly, like their parent, because they’re violent, ruthless and cruel regimes. Powerful. But no paragon, and certainly not one who give two shits about Western notions of who is committing genocide or war crimes against whom.
I really is ridiculous, and somehow the number only gets bigger as the stories are told! Last I saw was "40,000 protestors murdered in just 24 hours!", or something very close to it.
The US and Israel have been carpet bombing Iran for weeks now, blowing up hospitals, schools, power plants and residential buildings, yet the Iranian death toll is "only" around 1,500 so far. Yet we are to believe that Iran killed 40k of its own people in a day - you would literally be able to see piles of corpses from space!
Israel has also claimed that they've hacked every traffic camera in Tehran, yet are mysteriously unable to provide any actual evidence of the supposed massacre - meanwhile, Iran released several videos showing foreign agitators distributing weapons, people attacking civilians etc.
No they haven't. The US started phasing out carpet bombing[0] half a century ago. You discredit yourself by making such trivially falsifiable assertions.
The US and Israel use precision strikes. It is why the ratio of targets per sortie is by far the highest ever recorded in a major conflict.
While I somewhat agree, you should also look at the results of those precision strikes. Usually, when they kill a senior Iranian officer sleeping in his appartment, they level the building or at lest blow up several adjacent units, probably killing at last 10 innocent people.
That's an inherent limitation of precision strikes. The objective is minimizing the collateral damage required to achieve the objective, not avoiding it entirely. Even the various explosive-free precision-guided munitions the US uses have a non-zero damage radius.
One can argue whether or not it is a good idea for the bombs to be flying around in the first place, but there is no version of physics that allows anyone to avoid collateral damage as a practical matter.
I know. I'm just saying that the way we talk about 'precision strikes' in the west, make one feel like only the target is eliminated, while in reality we usually blow half of the building the target was in, along with all the people. I would actually be interested by a poll on what people in the US think about how many innocent people are killed in a precision or elimination strike on average - I bet it would be something like less than 1.
I agree that targeted strikes which miss or take out adjacent areas is not carpet bombing.
However, the above commenter suggested the U.S. has phased out carpet bombing, and while I'm suspect of that, we know with certainty that Israel will happily "carpet bomb" an area if it can string together a few words justifying it.
Even if it's true that what they've done isn't technically carpet bombing in the sense that they may not just dropping bombs out of planes indiscriminately, the same effect can be achieved with nominally "targeted" strikes now, especially with many of these being conducted by automated "targeting" systems.
Seriously, it's unlikely in this age of advanced weaponry that we'd see carpet bombing like we did in Vietnam, when the U.S. and Israel are capable of creating the same effect, but with thousands of supposedly tactical strikes over the entirety of some densely populated area.
Look at the videos coming out of Iran - civilian infrastructure and residences are clearly being targeted. Some unexploded bombs have been found that lack a JDAM guidance package.
And regardless of the USA, Israel is most certainly not above carpet bombing civilians.
Again, that's not "carpet bombing". Carpet bombing requires a type of aircraft that Israel doesn't have (though the US does).
Why would you expect a precision bomb to have a JDAM package? That is not the only type of guidance package. In fact, most of the footage I've seen (largely Israeli) has clearly been laser-guided bombs. They aren't the same thing, and the latter is more precise than JDAM in any case.
Use of precision-guided bombs in a city is not "carpet bombing".
Even if their actions might not precisely meet some dictionary definition of "carpet bombing", you know well what I meant - civilians and civilian infrastructure are being deliberately targeted with complete disregard for loss of life and environmental consequences.
You’re parroting IRGC propaganda, which is why people are arguing with you.
“We are innocent civilians and the Israelis are carpet bombing us”… said by the people that funded October 7th and killed more of their own people than the Israeli bombs did.
Iran’s government has been violently belligerent for decades, and continues to this day to bomb its Arab neighbours including hitting their civilians! They don’t get to whine about the morality of civilian versus military deaths.
Iran has absolutely not been violent for decades. And they don't "continue" to bomb their Arab neighbours - they are only bombing them now because they allowed their land to be used to attack Iran.
What exactly are Iran supposed to do here? Just give up, allow their country to be infested with ISIS and Al Qaeda, allow their country balkanised, their citizens massacred indiscriminatly?
You meant to lie, and you did lie, and you continue to lie. Standard TikTok rage where words no longer have meaning, reality must be rejected, and any headline is true even if the article directly negates it or there's no source, so long as it makes Israel look bad.
I swear, it's almost as if the anti-Israel mob _wants_ it to be true.
I looked into that one, because it was so outlandish but repeated by multiple sources and reported by reputable journalists.
The original reporting was carefully phrased to make it sound like IDF soldiers were "sniping" little children, taking careful aim and deliberately shooting them in the head, which is... monstrous.
Where this narrative starts to breaks down is that snipers don't aim for the head, because it's too small a target. Additionally, most of the reports mentioned that the children were shot "in the street" in scuffles with ordinary army grunts, so where were these mysterious "child-murdering snipers"? How were they so reliably hitting small moving targets in the head?
It turns out that this phenomenon was a product of Gaza's demographics combined with survivorship bias.
Half of Gaza's population is under 18! Teenagers are technically "children", but they're out in the streets throwing rocks or whatever at IDF troops, and get shot at in return. The ones that get hit by half a dozen rounds to the chest die on the spot and aren't taken to hospital because obviously, hospitals are for people that can be saved, not the dead. All of the reports of "children getting shot in the head" were coming from surgeons in hospitals, but they were seeing a biased sample: victims that only got hit once had a chance to survive. Similarly, a minor head-wound isn't instantly lethal, whereas a single round centre-mass typically is. So they were seeing victims with single shots to the head instead of multiple to the chest. They then cooked up a narrative that would explain what they were seeing, not realising that the cause wasn't "evil child murdering snipers", but simply a statistically biased view of a war that is not especially more unethical than any other armed conflict.
Here's a video of IDF in the West Bank head-shotting an unarmed elderly man who posed no threat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Ben_Avraham In this one, the man had converted to Judaism after feeling an affinity to the religion due to his grandfather saving the lives of more than 10 Jews during the 1929 Hebron massacre. His Aliyah request was denied, and he was executed while attempting to visit a settlement (by invitation) for Torah study
These are just ones that come to mind as some of the most brutal ones, but there are many, many more videos of the IDF executing unarmed Palestinians who are posing no threat by head-shot. And for every one we see there are likely 4 or 5 more which we don't see because they weren't independently recorded.
War makes people angry, and angry people are trivially swayed by propaganda.
For example, there's thousands of people still screeching online that the US deliberately bombed little girls in Iran. No, they hit a girls school by accident, it used to be an IRGC military base building and is surrounded by IRGC buildings!
I don't condone Israel's actions in Gaza, nor do I condone the US/Israeli attacks on Iran.
Having said that, it's important in a war -- irrespective of what side one is supporting or opposing -- not to believe exaggerations or outright lies.
War is bad enough, we don't have to sprinkle imaginary horrors on top of the real ones!
In the worst case, if too many people spout transparently obvious propaganda, then that discounts the believability of the true horrors. This is most obvious today with the "that's just a fake AI video" retorts, but before it was "fake news", or whatever.
“ The bombing, combined with other simultaneous Israeli military actions in Gaza, killed at least 68,000 Palestinians (mostly civilians), which is between 3% and 4% of the total population of the territory, and damaged or destroyed Palestinian schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, and other civilian infrastructure including refugee camps.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_bombing_of_the_Gaza_St...
In October 7th 2023, about 11% of the residents of Kibbutz Be'eri - 130 out of 1200 - were murdered, raped, tortures and/or kidnapped into Gaza: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre
translation: Uh oh, he has irrefutable evidence everything I just argued for 5 replies was a lie. Quick! Change the subject to “two wrongs make a right” I know, I’ll equate 120 people with tens of thousands of murdered children.
I argue that anyone saying this is watching too many TikTok videos and not really familiar with what's going on.
Without going into too much detail, my position and line of work means that I have to keep very informed on the middle east and so far I've seen a lot of hatred, and very little factual basis. In fact every single person I personally talked to was very uninformed on these matters which is fine, as long as you accept it and don't form extreme opinions on entire countries.
I consume no TikTok, no Facebook, no cable news, none of any of that.
If Israel doesn't want people to form "extreme opinions" about them then maybe they should stop oppressing and murdering poeple with a compete disregard for human life.
I'd appreciate if you didn't spam the same link all over my comments, once is enough. And as for "forensic architecture", please visit their website and go over who these people are - especially the Palestinians from Ramallah and self proclaimed "activists". This is by no means an unbiased organization.
Then don't go asking for a report in all of your comments on this page where you have, once is enough.
Forensic Architecture is one of the most reputed organizations for this line of work.
Their reports are read with great deal of respect here on HN and they cover more than this conflict. If they don't count as credible and competent, nothing will satisfy you -- the moral equivalent of covering one's eyes and ears.
So I will appreciate if you stop this sham of yours of asking for a citation.
While you are at it, do better than ad hominem. I am still waiting to hear an argument about the content of the extensive and methodical report.
For HN audience, the report was discussed on HN here
"Can't say too much, but I'm one of the world's biggest experts on the Middle East, and basically everyone accusing Israel of genocide (so all the NGOs, the journalists, all these other people with their lying eyes) is wrong. And Forensic Architecture are basically shills (one of their team members comes from Muslamistan, need I say more)."
Do you guys hear yourselves? Your posts being flagged all over should give you an indication of how it sounds.
> Then don't go asking for a report in all of your comments
Your link that you posted everywhere was to a single comment before you edited it (on all comments!) to point to something else. So not only did I not ask for a report, but you can't even be consistent with your own spam.
7 thousand confirmed death, 9 thousand unconfirmed death. Among that 1200 confirmed death from the regime forces, and 400 to be confirmed bystanders. The nurse burned to death by protesters is among those 400.
You're being disingenuous - the "protestor" was caught on camera literally hacking a policeman to pieces. He murdered a policeman, and will now be executed.
Can you back this with linking the said videos and maybe some info on legal proceedings of the fair trial in which this person was convicted? I’m curious.
It should be noted that Iran has claimed to have sunk the USS Lincoln and to have captured several US soldiers, among other creative interpretations of reality
To take the claims at face value, local governments that has an interest to shift blame on Israel, do not believe Iran, due to their own radar data
It should be noted that, contrary to your, erm, creative interpretation of reality, that Iran has claimed to have struck the USS Lincoln, not sank it.
And where is the radar data that proves missiles were launched towards Diego Garcia, let alone from Iran? Iran BTW say this wasn't them - and as they say in advance where they'll strike, I'm more inclined to believe them than the deranged Trump, Netanyahu et al.
I was mistaken, sinking it was a claim by IRGC influence networks, not official statement. However official Iranian statements have claimed to have hit the USS Lincoln with 4 ballistic missiles, which is also an amazing lie considering these missiles accuracy and the state of the Lincoln.
My point still stands, the Iranian regime has a different standard of truth than most people. Its lies are wild and non-subtle, I wouldn't put a lot of faith on any of those.
Regarding radar data, these is the evidence countries have when approaching such a situation. You can safely assume that a country like Qatar or Turkey for example that finance Hamas, have no vested interest to believe Israel over Iran. The problem is even they have some limit to being spit on and calling it rain
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