I'd just like to get this in before comments get on a roll. I learned about Russian culture during the Cold War, from professors who were Soviet emigres and the children of emigres. The image of Russian sensibilities I developed from their stories of everyday life in Russia was rather different from the brutish stereotype in popular culture, at the same time more empathetic but also scarier. Since then, I have always been disturbed by the dehumanizing portrayal of Russians in the West. Now with the war in Ukraine, that popular tendency has exploded into a vicious mania. Russia is full of people who love their family and are just trying to get through life. If 80% support Putin even with all that is going on, something is going on with them that Westerners clearly don't appreciate.
Furthermore, the rule of law is not the only human(e) way to govern or be governed. It is what westerners tend to think but societies have lived without it for millennia and people have thrived in them too,
>I have always been disturbed by the dehumanizing portrayal of Russians in the >West. Now with the war in Ukraine, that popular tendency has exploded into a >vicious mania. Russia is full of people who love their family and are just >trying to get through life. If 80% support Putin even with all that is going >on, something is going on with them that Westerners clearly don't appreciate.
The West is a conglomerate of more than 30 to 40 countries, with free and independent press in most of them, and open and fierce debate in multiple forums. There is no "dehumanizing portrayal of Russians" in the West, other than the one, caused by the open reporting of the unspeakable actions done in Russia's name in Ukraine.
So far, most of the West, has given the majority of the Russian population the benefit of the doubt under the argument that they live under a totalitarian regime. However it is also a common consensus in the West, that even if Russia had free and fair elections, Putin would probably be elected again.
Several independent Russian sources, reported that during the first days of the Ukraine invasion the common sentiment on the street was one of jubilation. A small minority, at great personal risk, protested on the streets but the core foundations of the state still look pretty stable.
Russia is not North Korea, and it's not an African underdeveloped country. It has a great educational tradition and most Russians have access to the Internet
even if strongly controlled. This Internet control is nowhere near levels like China or North Korea.
We have also heard of multiple stories of divided families. Mixed families in Ukraine with blood relatives in Russia, being called Nazis, while calling their Russian relatives under the noise of the shells of the Russian army.
Despite all the control, news have a way of spreading. I have strong doubts that the majority of the Russian population by now, has not heard of the the massive casualties of the Russian army and their horrifying actions in Ukraine.
If 80% still support Putin, then I think its fair to start talking about collective responsibility.
> There is no "dehumanizing portrayal of Russians" in the West
This is such a big topic, I'll stick to one narrow example, the accepted tone of discussion here on HN. Consider for a moment the plight of the Arabs in Palestine. They clearly have something to complain about in their treatment by Israel. However, we recognize a difference between complaining about Israel and expressions of anti-Semitism. One is accepted on HN and the other is not. Returning to the case of Russians, for a few years now, there has been a regular stream of Russo-phobic commenting on HN that doesn't get called out. When you see people making these kinds of comments about Russians, try replacing "Russians" with "Jews" and see how it sounds.
> Russian sources, reported that...the common sentiment on the street was one of jubilation.
So, what formed the outlook of Russians to make this the case? The trend here and around the West is to attribute it to some combination of economic factors and disinformation. Again, I'll point to one factor that is ignored. Since the independence of Ukraine, ethnic Russians there have suffered considerable abuse from the state and at local level. There is a 2008 article in The International Journal of Human Rights that gives some horrific details.[1] Consider that Russians have been hearing stories like this about the Ukraine for 30 years. With that perspective, you can see how someone could think this war is genuinely a fight for justice.
A few weeks ago there was a lot of intense but educational and largely thoughtful discussion on Hacker News on whether economic sanctions are a productive way to proceed. My impression is that a lot of discussion, supported by some posters with personal experience, was based on thoughts and assumption that the actions of a dictator should not necessarily be taken as will or actions of the populace.
As an outsider in Canada, but also as somebody originally From Eastern Europe, I find it fascinating that in the age of internets and global news, the rating for Putin remains higher than virtually any western leader.
I think seeing how things ended up for Russia after they opened up to the west in the 90s when the Harvard economists swooped in to transform then into a capitalist country explains most of it [1] [2] It is different for many young people with studies, who know english and see an opportunity and a high enough chance that if they incorporate themselves into the western world, they would be able to improve their place in life. But for older and less prepared people, specially the ones that lived through the 90s, probably see opening up to the west in a different light.
3.8m people have left Russia since this started, a rate of more than 1% of the population per month. How can such a flood of emigration coexist with an 80% approval rate?
> How can such a flood of emigration coexist with an 80% approval rate?
Well, it could be that all the people that don’t approve have left.
Or, it could be that in a state with highly active secret police, and widely known both legal and extralegal punishments for dissent, people tell opinion surveyors, if they say anything at all, exactly what they want the government to hear more of then than in freer societies.
That "may" is a bit far-fetched when the rate of emigration rises steeply to a fantastically high level and another measure of satisfaction stays unchanged. The people leaving didn't suddenly get a much more positive view of life elsewhere, after all.
In this case, you may be trying to make sense of garbage data. It's not unusual for public health figures in the 3rd world to be off by an order of magnitude. How confident are you that any of the numbers we have for Russia are better than a wild guess?
As for Russian emigration, the portion of society with the money and sophistication to support just up and leaving must be extremely small, and is probably very isolated socially from the rest of the population. So you have two distinct demographics that would poll very differently.
Public opinion polling in a society which has overtly criminalized many forms of dissent, which is known for an active secret police force, and where dissenters and even insufficiently loyal insiders – beyond the official legal sanctions – are frequently known to have interesting accidents involving windows, polonium tea, nerve agents, or (recently, a minor epidemic of) sudden extremely violent “murder/suicides” of entire families are, of course, easy to conduct in ways where the results are reliable indicators of public sentiment.
This is why the West should not be afraid of bringing pain down upon the populace with sanctions. The Russian people are our enemy. It isn't just Russian politicians.
